EP140 - Stripe Head of Stripe Issuing, Lachy Groom
Stripe is a payment processor that provides a set of tools to help businesses accept payment online. Their clients include Warby Parker, Wish, and Target. Lachy was the 30th employee at Stripe, he leads Stripe Issuing which is an end-to-end platform for quickly creating, distributing, and managing physical and virtual cards.
In this interview, we cover Lachy's background, the range of Stripes services, the state of online payments, mobile payment best practices, digital wallets, and marketplaces.
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Episode 140 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Friday, August 3, 2018.
Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, SVP Commerce & Content at SapientRazorfish, and Scot Wingo, Founder and Executive Chairman of Channel Advisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.
[0:29] Welcome to the jason and scott show. This is episode one, forty, being recorded on friday, august third, two thousand eighteen. I'm your host, jason retail, g, goldberg. And, as usual, i'm here with your co host, scottwingo.
[0:43] Hey, jason, and welcome back, jason's got show listeners. Well, jason, one of our favorite topics on the show, and certainly something near and dear to your heart, is payments on dhere in two thousand eighteen.
You cannot think about payments without thinking about one of the top payment companies out there.
Stripe we're very excited tohave on the show, laki groom, who is the head of Stripe, issuing here with us today, he is employee number thirty, and we're excited to have you lucky. Welcome to the jason scott show.
[1:15] Thanks very much for having me.
[1:18] We're super excited, and i'm eager to jump into payments. But before we do, one of things we always like to do on the show is, have our guests give a little bit of a background of their career and sort of how theycame to the role.
And particularly in your case, it seems like Stripe was still a very small, entrepreneurial company. When you came to them. So could you. Could you give us the kind of ah, the version of your career project progression?
[1:43] Sure so i i started seven in online development startups things of that nature pretty young my my granddad actually taught me html when i was a kid,
which got me pretty fascinated with the internet and from there i had a,
i started a business creating websites for friends and family and that sort of just,
just grew into servicing clients around the world on di i got started in and sort of something tangentially related to payments when i started a company called card nap which is a was a gift card marketplace,
on dh ii build this side out in australia it looked pretty similar to a company called plastic jungle here in the u s,
and it was just a nightmare to set up setting up this marketplace where i had to accept payments and pay people out manage inventory in and verifications and and so i ended up pivoting that business to be something elsethat it didn't really have a lot of those complexities.
[2:41] Ah and and from there that that really just kicked off my fascination with with startups and tech and so i knew i wanted to move out toe,
san francisco and had had a few friends that walked it Stripe didn't really understand this whole,
developer tools thing until they explained it to me and explained how starting my business back in australia could mean so much simpler if something like Stripe have existed ah and that that began my my joanie it'sStripe as one of the,
first few business high as high, initially focused on on one of our products, a product called check out. Then i moved in tow.
International expansion, where i helped Stripe launch, and singapore, australia and new zealand, hong kong, on bit of the rest of europe. And from there, i i worked on partnerships and,
our co payments product, walking with all the different credit card networks, building our copayment acceptance infrastructure.
And after doing that for a few years, i got fascinated with the whole other side of of payment acceptance and the credit card networks.
Which is, is sort of where i've landed today, issuing cods. And instead of making in payments, rather than focusing just on accepting them.
[3:47] Very cool on dare you talking to us today from san francisco from the bay area.
[3:52] I am, yeah. We just moved into it new office here and talking to you from from san francisco.
[3:59] Well, congratulations on dh for listeners that aren't super familiar with Stripe, can you give us, ah, kind of the the high level overview of aa. What you guys doing where you sit in the eco system?
[4:10] Sure, so fundamentally, we're a global technology company. We build,
economic infrastructure for the internet, so we work with businesses of all sizes from from brand new startups to public companies like sales force and facebook who all you Stripe teo to power some,
some part of their economic infrastructure,
and accepting online payments, managing their businesses online,
you've got millions of customers and over one hundred hundred or so different countries that used Stripe to start, run and scale their business,
on one thing that we've really being focused on is just reducing the barriers to entry for starting a business and then subsequently growing it in scaling it especially internationally.
Andi, we fundamentally believe that we're still in the early days of the internet's potential on we're seeing people you Stripe to build the kinds of companies that couldn't exist ten years ago.
New models like online crowdfunding or undermanned aps e commerce marketplaces really high growth companies with a broad appeal on dh. We build that the tools that allow them tio stop those kinds of businessesand scaled them out.
[5:16] Very cool. Let's was kind of jump into some payments. Just topics that that we've covered on the show would love to hear what you guys are seeing out there.
There's been a lot of innovation around, you know, touchless payments. So, you know, google pay, apple pay and those kinds of things. If my memory serves me right, you guys were like one of the first folks to reallykind of support.
You know, those platforms, how are they doing? And he thought, son, on where that's going?
[5:43] Yeah, i'm i'm a huge fan of these kinds of payment methods, i think it is if you've got an iphone and you're paying with apple pay it's almost the perfect payment experience,
you know, there's been some, i think some hitches with the new face i'd method, but when it was touch idea and you just press that one button to pay, i thought that was, you know, it's almost perfect.
You don't even need to think about the payment experience, which is is our real aspiration to make payments fade into the background.
It shouldn't need to be this this thing that consumers think about on dso for may, apple pez i think it's had an even bigger impact on purchases online than purchases offline,
we we work with with a bunch of companies that have the apple pay flow is a core part of their e commas floor, their mobile check outflow,
and i want one of those companies insta cot, which is a a marketplace here in san francisco and throughout the rest of the u s for purchasing groceries, they see their customers check out,
i think it's around fifty eight percent foster with apple pay on so it's just the these kinds of methods really simplify the payment flow, so it's something that we're, we're really bullish on the trend that we're seeing.
[6:53] Yeah, that's. Awesome on dh. I have seen some similar stets, stan.
Ah, there definitely is. Ah, sort of universal, axum, that if you have a lower friction, check out option b it apple pay or samsung pay, or even the payment ap.
I built into the ah, the many of the web browsers now, which i know you also support that.
Not only do people check out faster, but just conversions higher. They have much of us abandonment, and so they literally make more money.
[7:23] Yeah, we receive that across a bunch of different uses where they're seeing typically double the conversion rates with when, when a consumer uses a method like apple pay, they don't need to go fetch that creditcard number.
It's. Just ultimately, great for businesses and that's, an area that we try and focuses. How come we reduced the friction to improve the the conversion rate?
[7:45] Yep, and so at the risk of alienating the apple pay team, which in all seriousness, i know our listeners of the show apple pay is awesome.
The traditional knock on apple pay is, obviously the whole world doesn't use or have access to apple pay right like that, you know, ah, a minority of users are carrying an apple device and, you know as good as apple.
Is it an upgrading everyone there's still a lot of deployed apple devices that aren't apple pay compatible and so it's like the traditional knock wass it's, a great conversion tool for this very affluent, high spending,
ah, subset of the market but it's now feeling like even if it's not apple pay, but samson payer our microsoft pay or google pay or pin and a p i,
you know, we're trying to get to a critical mass where the overwhelming majority of shoppers have access to one of those easier payment things, that's becoming much more you.
[8:42] Yeah, absolutely. And as you mentioned with the payment request a p i it's now really coming to browse isas well, with quick ways of checking out on dh.
So now that i think pretty much every major phone manufacturer has, one of these methods were seeing it at least come to ubiquity in terms of the gaps that are adopting it. And now, it's, really just driving the consumeradoption and getting those cards into those wallets?
[9:05] Yeah, and tell me about had this right like a if i built an e commerce experience and i used ah ah, an older school, more traditional payment gateway, i program my own check out flow.
You know, i'm i'm doing some sort of interface to that. That payment gateway and then some new technology comes to the market like, ah, the payment, a p i ah, my developers have to go in and update my checkoutflow.
And so, you know, that's got to get in the road map and it's competing with a bunch of other priorities, and it might take a while before i support it, but one of the benefits ah, to Stripe clients is,
that they're they're actually using a Stripe check out follow.
So when some new payment system becomes available and you guys jump on supporting it quickly,
that propagates toe to a large part or all of your your users basically instantly do what do i have that right? Or am i over selling you?
[10:05] Yeah, you were gonna hire you on our honor and our team to describe it to our customers, so we have a bunch of tools and what we focus on his building tools to make it quick for much ensign developers to reactto these kinds of trends.
Before apple pay existed, people didn't really imagine apple pay what would have existed, and so it wasn't is easy thing for them to comprehend, adding, and so what?
Well, we're focused on building is things that they can effectively drag and drop in.
One thing that we find is that margins are businesses they really liked to control their checkout experience, it's something they generally feel, ah, just a lot of protectiveness over, and so what we give them is the ability toadd that,
really, seamlessly, there are options where they can they can effectively outsource that checkout experience to us, and we'll continuously update it with the with the latest payment methods that we see here if they'reexpanding the new countries payment methods of different countries.
So we kind of have two pots, one is where you just want to drop in something like apple pay and then not need to do any other work beyond that, that little update and the other where will continuously update thecheckout experience.
[11:11] Got it. And is it fair to say, like, in my mind, sort of the original market positioning, whether this was, ah, accidental or intentional, is, you've always been the really developer friendly option.
And so it feels like, like you guys turned up in a lot of experiences because the product manager left it to the developer, toe comp something up.
And you guys had this, you know, you know, great fbi examples on your website, and the developer would grab your sample code and get it implemented quickly. And and that that was probably, you know, sort of one ofyour original conquest strategies for getting a lot of customers.
[11:46] Yeah, that's, that's absolutely right. When when Stripe got started, there was no easy way to accept payments online. And it would be a developer that starting this company and they would be the one that pickedthe payment solution. And they would want the easiest one to get up and running.
But increasingly, we're seeing larger companies come to us for the same.
Where there, glad your company's heir increasingly recognizing the developer leverage that that they have the scarcity of engineering resource is and the importance to pick the solution that will allow them to move thequickest and react to trends like apple pay.
And i think apple really is a great example that where if you're running on a legacy, stack may take months and months to get this this into the market.
Where is that nimble start up competitor? Or, you know, even even a larger company that has ah, better engineering tools or developer tools can get it out in the market in time for launch.
[12:39] Yeah, absolutely. And i'll fully say, i am, ah, still super disappointed in the percentage of e commerce sites that don't support the payment. Ap. Which, to me, seems like a big myth, sort of.
But going your point about, you know how resource constrained for developers. So many of these sites are.
[12:58] Yeah, it just doesn't make any sense that that there, they're not adding these things. It's leaving conversions on the table. Top line revenue on so it's.
It really holds customer companies back, not having.
I think the best developer tools out there. It's, it's, similar trend with eight of us, where companies have gone from,
on premise, hosting or building their own data centers, recognizing that if you have a provider like kws, he'll just be able to move so much foster it puts you on on equal footing.
[13:27] Yeah, for sure and it's funny like at the moment. So we talked a lot about mobile e commerce on this show on dh.
For years, we've been talking about this thing called the mobile gap, which still exists, which is essentially,
ah hey, way more users are shifting from desktop browsers to mobile browsers, it's the majority of traffic on most big sites now, but the conversion rate on those mobile devices is is poor compared tto desktop.
Maybe it used to be a third and now it's approaching ah half and like i look at that ah, apple pay, but certainly the payment fbi as ah as well hanging fruit.
Ah, to improve that mobile gap and then i you don't now have this macro thing, which is admittedly more work and not necessarily ah exclusively, you guys.
But progressive web aps is another huge tool in that arsenal, and a very small number of e commerce sites have successfully got in that stuff done yet, like, do you guys see those kind of mobile trends?
And are there any other mobile trends that.
[14:30] Yep, we see the same thing.
We we we continuously review the largest e comma sites on.
We did a recent review of the top hundred commerce sites globally, and seventy two of them had greater than three, errors in there. Check out flows, things that could really easily be improved, to reduce friction for theirconsumers to pay them.
And a lot of those areas were mobile related. One fifth of those sites made mobile check out significantly hotter by not having a numerical keypad for entering credit card numbers.
Almost half of them didn't have order phil correctly. Setup it's little things like that, where you just you just give up, you try and you know, you decide. You'll wait until you're back on desktop, and then the punch is neverreally ends up happening.
[15:16] Yeah, and it's and i have to admit, like being a practitioner in the space. It is like a huge pet peeve of mine. It's like nails on a chalkboard when, like developers, don't get their input masquerade and you get thewrong wrong wrong keyboard for input.
I'm a big fan of them. Ah, predictive type ahead for address entry and stuff like that, and you know you still, ah, don't see that. Enough. So it's it's crazy, but it's. Ah, not surprising that you're you're seeing similar similar.
[15:46] These things, really on hard to build it's just it's, kind of crazy that everyone has to do it themselves, and so on.
Area, we've focused, is how do we build the tools such that everyone is on equal footing.
Everyone gets the lessons of the best practices and were positioned really well to know what converts well, what,
what consumers like, and so that that's that's been a big area of focus for us in the past few years is,
how do we take all the learnings we have developed from, from servicing millions of bill's businesses around the world and applying those toe aah, letting businesses have the right defaults from the get go.
[16:23] I recall one thing i wanted to talk a little bit more about. I'm the marketplace guy on the show and there's been an explosion of marketplaces on and started with products.
And now we're seeing a lot around what i would call on demand services. And i know that's an area where you guys do a ton, tell us about some of the things Stripe does around marketplaces.
[16:43] Yeah, we got we got started with marketplaces and number of a number of years ago ah and then,
the way it happened is pretty interesting because before that Stripe was if you're accepting payments from customers on we didn't really focus on what you would then do with those funds,
on we started to get some pretty interesting requests and one of them was from from lift its must've been five or so years ago,
where they had this request to add multiple bank accounts to their Stripe account,
and we're scratching our heads wondering what they were looking to do that we found out that they had this process of cutting checks to pay their drivers and they were wondering why khan strategist automate that potlike they do with with our our daily payout,
on that seem to be a pretty common problem amongst a number of thie marketplaces that used Stripe at that point in time they had all these back office operations and they're all doing the exact same thing and it seemedlike a real opportunity for us tow,
really simplify that providing a pea eye for it and.
[17:42] Fundamentally automate it on so that was something we began doing about five years ago wade called that product Stripe connect and we internally we call that the payments platform for platforms it z,
marketplaces and platforms you Stripe connect to accept money and then pay out to third parties and we provide everything in the middle.
To do that compliant, lena. Handle the tax, reporting the identity, verification and onboard and compliance with the different regulatory laws.
And ah, pretty much everything you need to do to manage a marketplace online as it relates to the movement of money.
[18:22] Wrinkle. And then i couldn't help but notice your title now has card issuing in there. And, you know, one of the challenges you have in these kind of digital and physical marketplaces is if i send you mentionedinsta card earlier.
If i send ah ten ninety nine shopper to go buy some groceries for a customer, i'm going to need to pay the grocery store. And you know that that quote, unquote, shopper is going to want to come out of pocket for that.
Is that kind of what's going on with the card is sure thing.
[18:52] Yes, that's, exactly right there's a there's a bunch of different use cases that that Stripe issuing consult and fundamentally, it is infrastructure, like the rest of stripes products on its infrastructure that relates to money,movement, and so instant cult.
To use that example, they have that store of funds that they have taken from from customers that they need to move to ah, grocery retailer that they don't necessarily have a contractual relationship with and and the bestway of doing that is with the credit card.
And so what we're providing to companies like this is an a p i to issue cod's both physical and virtual, and then dynamically control the span.
So, for example, insta kat would know exactly when a sort of a shopping session is taking place, and they would only want to authorize transactions in that window.
They would know exactly which store it's happening out, and they're on.
Lee wants approved transactions at that store, and so we give you or the customer complete flexibility on on how they use those cards and what what transactions can go through them, but again, fundamentally it'sinfrastructure and that's one use case of,
of many that we could support.
[19:59] That's. Awesome. And it feels like, ah, marketplaces air, really expanding, like, certainly internationally. But even here in the u s, we're getting more marketplaces and a wider set of use cases from marketplacesalmost every week.
Are there any surprising trends or particular learnings that you would want to share with new entrepreneurs that are getting into the marketplace model?
[20:21] Yeah, there's, you know, obviously two sides to a market place, you've got your your bias and your cell is on.
We focus on both sides on the on the bias building tools, tow service.
Those customers, things like apple pay make the transaction experience incredibly easy on then on the cellars with that Stripe connect product is talking about but one one interesting thing way we've discovered recentlyfrom our data.
We have thousands of market places that use us and, you know, obviously not all marketplaces grow at the same pace.
We found that market places with higher seller retention rates generate much greater revenue than the others. This may sound obvious, but it's, in contrast, to buy our attention higher. Bio retention isn't really associate idfrom from our data with significant revenue increases.
Way saw that increasing seller attention by one percentage point predicts ten x more revenue than the same one percentage point increase.
Ah, in buyer attention, i thought this was a pretty fascinating stat.
[21:21] Yeah, that's. Always a challenge for entrepreneurs. Is, is.
How do you grow these marketplaces? And you put all your resource is on the the seller side or the the buyer side? Or ah, scott likes to advise, like you couldn't need to balance it, right?
[21:38] Right, right. But it's it's really highlights you need think about how you retain sellas and you know what, what to sell is care about.
One thing that we've found they really care about is the speed of their payment, so they're they're delivering value on a marketplace and then they need to get paid on dso one one area we've focused there is, how can wereduce that payout cycle?
No, i get paid every two weeks, but as a competitive advantage on one of these marketplace marketplaces, how can you bring that down?
And so, with a partner like lift, we built a product called instant payouts on so they can get paid out right after they complete ah, right.
And now, over fifty percent of of lifts drivers take advantage of that instant payout functionality on dh so that veterinary where we liked folks, is well, where the one of the ways in which we can help platformsdifferentiate,
toe better service, they're they're cell is not just the bias.
[22:32] Very cool, sir. Pivoting off marketplace is a little bit.
You talk to the very early part about international on dh.
You have, ah, cool international accent. So this ties in with your accent against what are some interesting international payment trends.
You guys, we're seeing you read all about it, ali, pay and and what's going on there. And, you know, china has a lot of really interesting things, curious to see some of the the trends you're seeing internationally.
[22:57] I think one of the most interesting things just a top level is how hard it is for market places to expand internationally,
there is there is a whole different regulatory environment different payment methods is your highlighting both on the acceptance side and on the pay outside on so it's,
it's i honestly find a pretty impressive any market place that has managed to build infrastructure to take them from one country to many just because of all of the complexity involved in that expansion and i i think that's,
that's just so hard to understate the power of that,
on so it's it's you know it i love it is a consumer of something like uber where i can use it in the u s and then go to a different country and it just works out of the box the same app and so it's really impressive theinfrastructure that built,
in the in the background but in terms of payment methods you know money is money is oddly cultural on dso we're seeing in every country we go too and we expand into,
is an entirely new set of payment methods that we have tto have to deal with and soon in the us obviously everyone uses credit cards on dh in france it's the same over eighty percent of online purchases are credit cardsbut for,
neighboring germany it's less than twenty five percent and they use something called sepa which is effectively just a bank transfer.
So if each of these new countries, marketplaces or retailers have to think about how they accept money from their consumers, and and we can just take this. U s centric view of credit cards and debit cards dominate.
[24:26] Very cool. A lot of companies, yourselves included, sort of started on the digital realm accepting payments online. But we've seen a number of them sort of extend to physical payments and sort of omni channeluse cases. Is that something you guys are doing as well?
[24:41] Yeah, and, you know, i think there's there's more than just a sort of the point of sale devices there we see a lot of,
like when you think of something like lift, fundamentally, you're you're operating with a real world service, you're you're getting into a car, and so what is ah, on online payment, what is an offline payment anymore?
And they've solved that by the having the payment experience just happened in the background.
You don't even think about transacting there's no, no riel time exchange of information with each ride that takes place or transaction on so that's an area where we really try to push the businesses that air.
Welcome with Stripe think about how to make payments fade into the background, but obviously with with retail transactions, and we work with companies like shopify and we'll be parka who have ah, store they'rethey're they're merchants have storefronts, and so,
we power point of sale systems for them as well, but fundamentally it's about unifying those systems and so it's a single system with stripes, they can look at customers online looking customers offline ah, and make it asseamless as possible.
[25:45] One thing that's kind of nursing as a sow, one of one of the atmosphere on fire and one of my companies was was kind of a platform play, if you will, are tools for developers,
sometimes it's, hard to kind of, you know, ask you figure out when to stop, have you guys so, like on the marketplace example,
you could go into helping marketplaces recruit sellers, you could go into you kind of hint, you know, said that you do a little bit of verification,
you could even go into, like, background checking of drivers or something like that.
How do you guys think about how deep you want to go? And then, like, no, we stop here, and this is kind of where this is the platform. Anything above it is not us. How do you guys think about that?
[26:23] It's a really good question on dh you know, i wish i had some framework i could just give it to you, but fundamentally we talk to our uses, what water, the common themes of problems that they're all having on,and,
then we do our best to solve them.
We generally don't go into super niche use cases on sort of solved just for one vertical.
We like to look at the problems that pretty much all marketplaces were having or in the case of subscription business is pretty much all subscription businesses are having and then build software toe,
to the extent that is useful for sort of the eighty percent and then where those nuances come in for maybe a very vertical ized business,
they build that lost twenty percent that's really specific to their business or the needs of those customers.
And this is where we try through the ap eyes that we build to make it generic enoughto handle that wide variety of use cases, and just really folks on the infrastructure is maybe that's.
One way of thinking about what is infrastructural thus is sort of what sits on top of the infrastructure.
[27:24] Cool one topic that's in the news.
A lot lately is. Security is kind of interesting as an e commerce guy, i think it's interesting that, you know, the variety of hacks read about now are kind of happening out on the physical point of sale system.
It seems like, but i know a full disclosure at my current companies. Fifty we use Stripe and one of the reasons we love it is on my previous company. We went out, we had to build out that whole pc. I stack ourselves.
Andi, i i love that we could just use Stripe and, you know, we don't even see the credit cards. You guys take care of all that, and we just kind of, you know, we get pc i compliance, quote unquote, for free.
What, you give us a little a little blurb about security in today's world, and you know how Stripe looks at that and any trends you're seeing there.
[28:10] Yeah i mean you've kind of set it all we really try and make security cool feature of the Stripe offering that again something folks don't need to think about it's just a strong default,
on and there's all this talk of token ization in the payment schemes are the payments walled these days but it's something that Stripe did from the get go,
i think a lot of people think about Stripe score innovation as developer tools i think of it,
one of the really important ones that got us to where we are today is that that pc i shielding that you're highlighting there we had the concept of a token since,
the beginning of Stripe where we would we would store there's card details and and the merchant or business owner wouldn't have tio,
and that was that was about eight years ago that we started doing that and so security is court of the dna off Stripe it's something that we think about in each new product that we launch because it is your highlighting itsomething that distracts from delivering a product to your customers,
building that pc i vote that isn't necessarily directly beneficial and if someone else khun solve that problem even better you can focus on unsolved ing the problem that they came.
[29:20] I think very broadly hackers will often talked at the weakest link in a chain stitch together many providers in in a long chain so there's many weak links that you can possibly target on dso.
We're focused on when folks use us, you've gotten and twin solution for, for all things security. You send the card numbers directly to Stripe.
We only provide one time use tokens to ma agents, and i think that really reduces the surface area, especially in an online payments.
[29:48] Yeah, it's. Funny. I talk a lot about trust and, like there's, a lot of evidence that consumers still have a huge trust. Graff gap with, with online experiences, even from very well established businesses.
And it's. Always ironic to me that fewer customers trust typing that payment information into the token eyes encrypted browser than they do, handing it to the minimum wage clerk at the store that has a skimmerunderneath her death.
[30:16] Yeah, i mean, for good reason to a lot of folks not trust the retail is that they're paying not because of any bad intent, just because it could be so easy to to breach these legacy systems.
As we saw, with many of the breaches that have come to light recently on so that's an area, well, we really just try and focus and make sure that their aunt ways of ah breaching Stripe much is by providing them the besttools possible.
But it's it's, obviously so hot. And i think one of the really mind boggling things is.
How can these small businesses have the kind of security that these large mega cops have?
Ah, and even these large mega collapse air getting breached. And so the more we can do to democratize security tools are best practices. I think it's, a really worthwhile place for us to continue to focus.
[31:06] Yeah, that is ah, on awesome area of opportunity and that's going to be a great place to leave it. Because it's happened again, we've used up all our allotted time.
S o. We certainly appreciate having you on the show if listeners have any questions there, encouraged to go to our facebook page and posting comments there, and we can continue the dialogue, as always.
If you enjoyed today's show, we sure would appreciate that. Five star review on itunes.
Gosh, really appreciated you being on the show today. If wisner's wantto contact you directly, can they find you on twitter? Or lengthen or what's your preferred method of contact?
[31:46] Yeah, i'm pretty active on twitter it's, twitter, dot com slash laki groom on it's. My.
[31:53] Perfect, and we'll put that in the show. Notes. Ah, and so, until next time, happy commercing.